I don't see what the big deal is. From what I see of the talent list, I would kill to have some of that as a warrior. Dodge, crit strike bonuses, reduce incoming damage capability. Not to mention, the ability to gain back energy faster, increase your max energy, and massively reduce energy costs on your abilities.
Dodge? Worthless versus spells, poisons, diseases, AOEs, and ranged physical attacks. Which means it's worthless against all caster classes and Hunters. Plus, Warriors get Overpower, which means we get to suck 1000+ points of damage if we dodge.
Crit Strike bonuses? Warriors get those too. Yeah, you don't get them as early in your talent tree as Rogues, but you get them. Plus, you have more armor (and thus more damage mitigation), more hps, and there's a lot more +defense gear for Warriors then Rogues.
Reduce incoming damage? Only if we dodge. Which, to recap, is not the end-all, be-all line of defense that everyone thinks it is. Our armor rating, overall, sucks. Druids, the only other class that is restricted to leather, can at least go bear form and have tons of armor. And if you mean the talents in the new Subtlety tree, you have to go pretty deep in that tree to get a small chance to 'dodge' ranged attacks and spells, which is going to reduce your damage dealing abilities by a large amount.
Gain back energy faster? Adreneline Rush is the only thing that does that (other then Thistle Tea, and hey, you have Rage potions), and you have to spec for it, and it's on a timer. And if you're specing for Adreneline Rush, you're not getting that spell-dodging ability.
Increase max energy? You can only mean Vigor. Which is fucking useless unless you have 5/8 Bloodfang.
Massively reduce energy costs? Improved Sinister Strike 2/2 reduces the cost of Sinister Strike from 45 to 40. That's it. Unless you have certain high level sets.
How about the problems we have with our cooldowns? Vanish. Five minutes and a reagant. Doesn't work a lot of the time in PvP. Fails in PvE some times as well. Compare that to Feign Death, which is every 30 seconds, no reagent, and works almost all the time in PvE, and in PvP, they have the lovely "Working as intended" Feign Death/Freezing Trap bullshit.
Blind. Five minutes and a costly reagent unless you're an Herbalism gatherer.
Evasion. Five minutes, and useless against over half the classes.
Sprint. Five minutes, and even with the new Improved Sprint talent, it doesn't address how easily we're kited.
Throw in that we're the only class without a buff to give to the rest of the party/raid, our armor rating can actually be lower then cloth casters, thanks to their armor buffs, we can have less HP then Warlocks (and they're one of the classes that can most easily kite us, Hunters being the other one), and a number of other factors, and you can probably see why we're pissed.
This patch did nothing to address our kiteability. It did remarkably little to address our damage scaling. (Yes, shockingly, the scaling on Eviscerate, Garrote and Rupture is a fucking joke.) It did nothing to address our lack of utility, end-game. It did nothing to address the continued and repeated nerfs of Stealth.
And we practically no goddamn communication at all from the Devs or blue posters. Drysc, the guy what was supposedly communicating between us and the devs went almost four fucking weeks between posts. Apparently, he couldn't take five goddamn minutes out of his busy schedule to even post "Nothing new to report yet, guys." or "Make sure to check out the PTR, and report any issues you see."
I've actually been looking forward to this patch, as a Sword-spec rogue. Been using calculators to come up with the new build, and I can't wait to see what it amounts to. Then again, I rarely use the traditional Rogue trees, avoiding Backstab, Rupture and Hemmorhage stuff. I'm there to sneak up and whack'em with my DPS, yo. And pick locks. And PVP alliance bitches.
Look, I'm not saying the patch is all bad. Subtlety spec got a much needed boost.
But the scaling on Eviscerate, Garrote, and Rupture is a joke. Rogues with "average" AP (650-850) will actually lose a bit of damage, if I recall correctly, and Rogues with a lot of AP 1100+, will gain a marginal amount. About the only good news out of that is Blizzard said they are going to keep an eye on that and see if it needs to be adjusted upwards or not.
Plus, on the Rogue forums, it seems every other retarded non-Rogue player posts about how godlike Dodge is, when in reality, it's not as great as they think. Yeah, it rocks when it works. And if you pop Evasion (and Ghostly Strike if you have it), you dodge melee attacks like a motherfucker. But it's useless against spells, against AOEs, against Overpower, and against Hunters.
Vanish is supposed to have been fixed at least twice since they broke it. Have yet to see if they really fixed it this time, although from tests on the PTR, signs point to no.
And actually, my Rogue is a lot like yours. I use swords, and I can't recall the last time I used Backstab, Rupture or Hemo. Hell, Hemo is only really useful for stunlock Rogues (which is another things that every other retarded non-Rogue thinks is way more effective then it really is). In solo PvE, I start with Ambush and then beat the shit out of things.
And if Blizzard would stop nerfing Stealth, and would make it so resisted spells and non-damaging effects would not break Stealth... that would be nice.
Oh, and I am looking forward to seeing how the new cross-server Battlegrounds will play out. Not so interested in the World PvP in Silithus, though. Eastern Plaguelands PvP looks mildly interesting.
Dodge? Worthless versus spells, poisons, diseases, AOEs, and ranged physical attacks. Which means it's worthless against all caster classes and Hunters. Plus, Warriors get Overpower, which means we get to suck 1000+ points of damage if we dodge.
Priest invulnerability is the same way. I can absorb ALL of the damage, but still be poisoned, diseased, frozen. And Overpower requires rage AND timing. If you are out of rage, you can't overpower. If you are lagged even a little, you can't overpower. And if you're clicking on the overpower icon is interpreted as a drag, you get all screwed up as your icons shift.
Crit Strike bonuses? Warriors get those too. Yeah, you don't get them as early in your talent tree as Rogues, but you get them. Plus, you have more armor (and thus more damage mitigation), more hps, and there's a lot more +defense gear for Warriors then Rogues.
Yes, they aren't in the top tier. Damage mitigation means squat against spells. +defense gear only helps in not getting critted against melee attacks. Oh, and as the tank, my job, 50% damage reduction against a 3200 point attack still means I take 1600 points. I can take that 3 times before dropping. And I'm nowhere near geared out. Rogues get far more stuff in special abilities than warriors do. Put a naked rogue and a naked warrior in the same room with comparible weapons, the rogue is going to be walking out every time.
Gain back energy faster? Adreneline Rush is the only thing that does that (other then Thistle Tea, and hey, you have Rage potions), and you have to spec for it, and it's on a timer. And if you're specing for Adreneline Rush, you're not getting that spell-dodging ability.
And rage potions aren't on a timer? And the same timer my healing potions are? And the reasonably priced ones give back maybe 25 rage?
Increase max energy? You can only mean Vigor. Which is fucking useless unless you have 5/8 Bloodfang.
Massively reduce energy costs? Improved Sinister Strike 2/2 reduces the cost of Sinister Strike from 45 to 40. That's it. Unless you have certain high level sets.
How about the problems we have with our cooldowns? Vanish. Five minutes and a reagant. Doesn't work a lot of the time in PvP. Fails in PvE some times as well. Compare that to Feign Death, which is every 30 seconds, no reagent, and works almost all the time in PvE, and in PvP, they have the lovely "Working as intended" Feign Death/Freezing Trap bullshit.
At least you get something. We get max 100 rage and that's it. And again, rogues start a combat ready for stuff, we have to build up to it. Dirty deeds gives you Cheap Shot and Garrote for 20 energy less. Yes it's deep in the tree. But if I recall correctly warriors get much less in rage reduction abilities. Also, comparing your vanish against a hunter combo is kind of pointless. Yes, that does seem to be broken, but what are you going to do? I personally spring the trap and let my party nuke the site from orbit.
Who says each class needs a buff. Rogues are fairly powerful in their own right and a lot would say overpowerful for too long. Having played just about every class for a number of levels, I can say the following:
You don't always have your armor spells up. They can get dispelled. You forget to bring them back up at times and/or they fall down at the worst possible times.
Anyone, anyone can be kited. Some races/classes can get out easier. I can almost guarentee that you've never been kited by a warrior. And end-game? I would love to have rogues along. You can open those chests that are locked so I don't have to carry expendable lockpicks. You can sap the critters so we aren't facing them 10 at a time. Admitedly, there are parts of MC and other zones where you aren't useful as say a mage or a priest (got to have a priest), but there are places where I don't want hunters along AT ALL.
As far as stealth being broken, I will admit to not having played a rogue overmuch, simply because the WoW rogues are not my style. The fact is that Blizzard has no clear idea of what stealth should and shouldn't do and what should and shouldn't break stealth.
We "start a combat ready" because our abilities cost so much. The "openers" (moves that really can only be done at the beginning of a fight) for Rogues are Ambush, Garrote, and Cheap Shot.
Ambush: Requires 60 Energy Garrote: Requires 50 Energy (down to 30 with Dirty Deeds) Cheap Shot: Requires 60 Energy (down to 40 with Dirty Deeds)
We have to expend, before any talents, half our energy bar for an opener. Sinister Strike, at best, costs 40 energy. Hemo, the cheapest spammable attack, costs 35 energy.
Overpower? 5 Rage. When the hell doesn't a Warrior have 5 Rage? Rend? 10 Rage Charge? Gives you 9-12 Rage Heroic Strike? 15 Rage, and you can talent that down to 12 Rage, I believe.
Yeah, it's 'balanced' by the fact that we regen Energy and Rage degrades, right? Except for the fact that Warriors Rage generation is largely based on the damage they do, and with increases in itemization, a Warrior can have all kinds of Rage as long as they keep hitting things. Blizzard has even said they're looking into that because it's getting a little out of control.
Let's see... what else... you point out that damage mitigation means squat against spells? Yeah, guess what, as I already pointed out, so does Dodge. At least you have more armor for the physical attacks. You can take 3 of those attacks? Rogues could take two. And who's more likely to get healed? The tank or the rogue.
Let me think... could it be, the tank? Why yes!
And here's what doesn't need to break stealth.
Resisted spells. Non-damaging spells. I don't give a flying fuck how much your shout reduces my AP, it shouldn't break my stealth. Minimal damage. I have 3300 hps. 10 points from a rank 1 Arcane explosion should not break my stealth.
Yes, if I get caught in the middle of an AOE and take a few hundred or more points of damage, it should break my stealth. If someone runs right past me, sees me, and is able to target me and cast on me, it should break my stealth.
But it's ridiculous what does it now, and how ineffective stealth is. I've had Horde members waving at me from 20-30 yards away. And I have 5/5 MoD. But, of course, Blizzard doesn't care about that.
I'll preface this by saying I am also swords, using an AQR and Iblis, and in full bloodfang with 1022 unbuffed ap.
Sure, the patch didn't address some of our problems. Kiteability still sucks. Scaleability of energy is still bad. I think they could have rounded some talents out better for sword/fist rogues (namely aggression is too expensive). Cooldowns are still really long unless you take some pointless filler talents.
But, lets look at what we did get. Weapon Expertise is awesome. The plus weapon skill is gonna put raiding rogues into overdrive, espiacially non-dagger rogues, since itemization for plus skill for non-daggers is pretty much just maladath.
The moving of opperunity to tier 1 is really great for dagger rogues. Now they can go all the way up the tree to Adrenaline Rush should they so choose. (And they will)
The reworking of the subtley tree is really great for pvpers. They get some more defenses and that sweet plus ap talent. Serrated blades is nice too. Just a general increase in burst damage.
Consolidating the poison talent was also something that needed to occur.
Eviserate with a suitablt high ap will add a good amount of dps in a raid. It seems to get the full upgrade in dps you need to be on the high high end of ap, and for everyone else, not so much of a change.
So, in general, could they have done more? Yes. Did we get totally screwed? No. We got some stuff. It wasn't all we wanted but I'll take it. My general feeling is alot of the major changes to the class we are clamoring for present balance issues that can only really be addressed in the expansion.
Rogues should definitely be god-mode. Rogues shouldn't be able to be kited (who cares that they have sprint). Rogues should be immune to magic (who cares that a pair of rogues can stunlock any healer in a BG to death). Rogues should have infinite energy (who cares that rogues are already one of the best, if not THE best, DPS class in the game). In fact, I think rogues should also be given an instant complete heal on a 3 second timer and fear immunity. Then rogues might FINALLY be balanced.
I'm not saying there weren't good points in the review. There were. I'm really seriously looking at going back to heavy Subtlety spec. Plus, once the level cap goes up to 70 and everyone can have 10 more talent points, the new talents had better be damned good or Rogues are going to be really nasty with Subtlety.
But, you know, it's not so much as they didn't address the issues like kiteability and scaleability of enegry that really bothers me. It's not that their scaling of Evis, Rupture and Garrote is weak at the average AP levels. It's the absolute lack of communication we had. I swear, during every other class review, that class had a lot more communication from blue posters (Blizzard community managers on the official forums).
We went almost a month between posts by Drysc, who was supposed to be our communication bridge to the devs. Now, I don't know. Maybe he was talking to them every day, telling them about the biggest gripes, requests, or questions. But the simple fact of the matter is that even if he was, he wasn't communicating with us. It doesn't matter if it wouldn't have changed a thing. It really doesn't. But it's very irritating that he couldn't take a couple of minutes a few times a week... hell, even once a week to at least post on the Rogue forums.
Christ, and I thought I only had to worry about anonymous posters on the Blizzard forums.
Okay, let's take your statements point by point.
Sprint? Five minute timer, lasts 15 seconds. And without the Improved Sprint talent, you don't break any movement debuffs on you. With it, you only break them at the moment you activate Sprint, so if another is reapplied, you're still screwed. Now, does every other class have a movement debuff or root or fear effect that can keep us from getting in melee range where we can do damage? Why, yes. Is Crippling Poison the only movement debuff that relies not only on being in melee range but on proccing? Why, yes. Sure, Hamstring (Warrior ability) requires melee range, but if it hits (i.e. isn't dodged or parried), then it affects the target. We have to not only be in melee range, we have to hit and hope the poison procs. And if you don't have Crippling poison on your weapon(s), you can't slow them at all.
Immune to magic? I wasn't asking for that. We have a talent now, deep in the Subtlety tree that lets us dodge some magical effects, but at best, it's a 4% chance. As for stunlock, it's a lot harder to do then people think. And if anything goes wrong in the stunlock, like a stun being resisted, a hit missing (yes, stuns can miss), then it's over. We're hit with Fear (Priests, Warlocks) or Frost Nova or Polymorph (Mages), and then they back up and tool us. For a stunlock to work, every part of it has to be perfect. And in the case you mentioned, yes, two rogues can tool a single healer. But hey, that's two on one. I daresay two Paladins or two Druids could tool any healer.
Infinite energy? Did I ask for that? No. But Vigor, as a 31 point talent, is very weak. It's sole purpose is to get you to 120 when you have 5/8 Bloodfang. It would be far better if it was +20 Energy and it didn't stack with the Bloodfang bonus.
Best DPS? You're right, we should have that. We're in leather armor. We have less armor and hps then any other class that has to go into melee. We tend to be healed less because all the focus is (and really, should be) on the main tank. But right now, our DPS is being challenged by Fury Warriors who can off-tank by thowing a shield on. Hunters can deal very good DPS as well, and they don't have to be in range of PBAOEs, Cleaves, and other lovely melee effects. Thus, they avoid a lot of the repair bills that rogues end up having to pay.
A complete heal? Did I ask for that? No. Doesn't make sense for us to have one, either. Fear immunity? Did I ask for that? No. Doesn't make sense for us to have it. Would it be nice if we had a talent that gave us an increased chance to resist fear? Sure. It would take the sting out of Deathcoil a little. It would partially address our kiteability as well.
You know what buffs I would like to see for Rogues?
Increased resistence to poison effects. No idea if this would have to be a straight buff to Nature resistance, or if it could be narrowed down to just poisons, but considering we use poisons every day, we should be at least slightly more resistent to their effects.
A Rogue's mark. Hunter's have one. Why not Rogues? Serves a dual purpose. 1) It lets party/raid members know which mob is getting sapped/ambushed/cheap shotted/whatever, and 2) it could be a party/raid buff similar to Hunter's Mark, where the Rogue's Mark adds melee AP to anyone attacking the marked mob.
Non-nature poisons. It's incredibly annoying to have part of our DPS supposedly based on the fact that we use poisons, and then have entire instances that are largely poison resistant/immune.
As far as the wave thing goes, I know how some of that is done. Some of the add-ons can show what the MT (or whoever) is 'clicking on', so if you get targeted by them, then others can target you as well.
Energy costs? I've played a rogue enough to know that the opening moves cost a lot, but that doesn't seem to matter, since my energy regen at 5th level meant that I could follow up with one attack, wait 3 seconds and do it again. The only time energy was an issue was when I was a couple points short for a finisher and killed the monster anyways.
Overpower - 5 rage. But you also have to notice they dodged/the icon lit up. I don't use mods that automatically use my abilities for me. Rend - 10 rage. Still got to hit. Charge - 9-12 rage. Yeah, it's our opener. Also puts us up ahead of the party, oh and it can't be used if we are already in combat. Sapped? Can charge until the combat is over. Shot by a hunter or distance nuked, can't charge. Heroic strike is used early on, but it's much less than optimal at higher levels unless you are keeping your rage really high. And the damage it does, does not give you rage back.
Should MoD at rank 5 give you 'more stealth', maybe. But it's also at the top of the tree for talents. If it was lower, I could see it being more effective. The problem was is that stealth was broken originally. Unless you were a hunter the only way to know that the rogue was coming was to have spot hidden or whatever. As a mage, yes, you could keep a series of level 1 arcane explosions going. Before they 'broke' stealth, my warrior repeatedly got owned by rogues 10 levels lower than him. 50% damage reduction and I don't get to swing at all in combat, thanks to stealth and stun-lock.
So if you want to blame someone (in addition to blaming Blizzard), blame the people that started the abuse of the class that brought about the nerfing.
Not only should MoD give you more stealth, it does give you more stealth. Unfortunately, due to Blizzard's half-assedness, it works like this.
5/5 MoD gives you +3 levels of stealth. So a 60th level Rogue with MoD 5/5 stealths like a 63rd level Rogue. So one level of the talent is 3/5ths of a level of stealth. Which is pathetic. It needs to be a minimum of +1 level of stealth per talent point.
And as it stands now, a Hunter 15 levels lower can kite a 60th level Rogue.
Quote: Dodge? Worthless versus spells, poisons, diseases, AOEs, and ranged physical attacks. Which means it's worthless against all caster classes and Hunters. Plus, Warriors get Overpower, which means we get to suck 1000+ points of damage if we dodge.
First of all, you cannot put Physical and Spells in the same catergory for Dodge. Dodge applies only to Physical, while RESISTS applies to Spells. You need to get a clue on that fact. Hunters. They are the Anti-Melee Class. What do you expect? Warriors. Dodging is fine. Being Overpowered is also fine. Dying to Overpower constantly means you need more Stam. IT IS possible to beat a Warrior with ZERO Cooldowns with high dodge and health. Just eat those Overpowers and dodge everything else.
Quote: Crit Strike bonuses? Warriors get those too. Yeah, you don't get them as early in your talent tree as Rogues, but you get them. Plus, you have more armor (and thus more damage mitigation), more hps, and there's a lot more +defense gear for Warriors then Rogues.
All classes get Crit bonuses. Comparing to Warriors dmg mitigation, HP, and Def; we get Avoidance, Agro reduction, and DPS at a 80% threat level.
Quote: Reduce incoming damage? Only if we dodge. Which, to recap, is not the end-all, be-all line of defense that everyone thinks it is. Our armor rating, overall, sucks. Druids, the only other class that is restricted to leather, can at least go bear form and have tons of armor. And if you mean the talents in the new Subtlety tree, you have to go pretty deep in that tree to get a small chance to 'dodge' ranged attacks and spells, which is going to reduce your damage dealing abilities by a large amount.
Bears are sponges and they ALWAYS take dmg. No avoidance FTL. Leave the tanking to the appropriate classes.
Quote: Gain back energy faster? Adreneline Rush is the only thing that does that (other then Thistle Tea, and hey, you have Rage potions), and you have to spec for it, and it's on a timer. And if you're specing for Adreneline Rush, you're not getting that spell-dodging ability.
Adrenaline Rush is not a means to REGEN energy but to increase burst DPS. DPS Spec versus Survivability Spec.
Quote: Increase max energy? You can only mean Vigor. Which is fucking useless unless you have 5/8 Bloodfang.
It's Nightslayer set but the +10 Energy is only really useful for PvP and only uselful for openers. In Real PvP and PvE your energy bar starts at 0
Quote: Massively reduce energy costs? Improved Sinister Strike 2/2 reduces the cost of Sinister Strike from 45 to 40. That's it. Unless you have certain high level sets.
This has remained unchanged for almost 2 years. It's a Staple Talent pt for most specs.
Quote: How about the problems we have with our cooldowns? Vanish. Five minutes and a reagant. Doesn't work a lot of the time in PvP. Fails in PvE some times as well. Compare that to Feign Death, which is every 30 seconds, no reagent, and works almost all the time in PvE, and in PvP, they have the lovely "Working as intended" Feign Death/Freezing Trap bullshit.
Blind, Evasion, Sprint...
Yes we are a Cooldown reliant class. I would think these skills were intended for group PVP anyways. So 5 mins is rather cheap when your are playing 15 mins - 2 hrs BGs. I don't think you can win a war with any less time than that.
Quote: Throw in that we're the only class without a buff to give to the rest of the party/raid, our armor rating can actually be lower then cloth casters, thanks to their armor buffs, we can have less HP then Warlocks (and they're one of the classes that can most easily kite us, Hunters being the other one), and a number of other factors, and you can probably see why we're pissed.
First to kill, First to die. We are the cannon fodders. We go in do some dmg. That's all we can do and what we were design to do. Maybe you missed this when you rolled a Rogue.
Honestly if you can do better then just quit this game and go on to create the "Perfectly Balanced World of Warcraft: As It Should Have Been." Blizzard has already sucked you in for this long. I am amazed you still play.
When in melee range, no class can keep a player incapacitated like a rogue. Rogues have kidney shot, gouge, crippling poison, and sap (did I forget any?). Mages have poly and frost nova. Warlocks have fear, death coil, and seduce. Warriors have intercept and hamstring. Shaman have earthbind. Druids have roots and bash (IF they can shift into bear form and it isn't dodged). Priests have fear and MC. Hunters have wing clip and concussion shot. Paladins have hammer of lameness.
Every class has a trade off for their CC abilities. It seems you want no trade off. Rogues can vanish to remove movement impairment effects now. You don't like that it's on a 5 minute timer? It would be overpowered if it wasn't.
The +10 energy bonus is on Nightslayer, not Bloodfang. I'm starting to wonder if you actually play a rogue.
One last thing, I would advise you not make comments about druids, considering your previous comment about bear form. It's obvious to me you haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about.
Fine, Nightslayer, I don't have either. But it still stands. Vigor is useless as a 31-pt. talent unless you have that stuff.
The problem with our CC abilities is that unless you're a stunlock rogue, it's practically impossible to stunlock a player. Plus, with the exception of Blind (which, I would like to point out is on a five minute timer and requires a reagent, so it's not like it's an "any time I want to" CC ability), none of them have any range at all.
Sap, if we're lucky, lasts for 10 seconds. Usually it lasts for less. And with it and Gouge, any damage breaks it. Compare that to Fear effects, where it seems it never breaks before the rogue is dead. Polymorph breaks on damage too, but it's basically the signal for the mage to back up to 30 yards and nuke us from orbit.
Our trade off, as you put it, is that we have to be in melee range to apply any of our CC abilities (except for Blind). Except that every class has easier applied ways to keep us out of melee range.
Warriors don't. Hunters get one trap every 30 seconds or something (haven't played a hunter long enough to get traps). The cloth casters, if they are on their game, can own anyone.
The role of the rogue in a group is DPS. Not CC. If it was supposed to be CC, then yes, you would suck at it. You provide some optional CC, but it's typically not required. Does it make certain parts easier? Sure. Just like having a good tank does.
The job of the rogue in a group is to, after the tank has good and pissed off the monster, get in and kill it quickly before the tank expires. I have seen footage of five rogues in an instance destroying things massively. Yes, they did need a number of reagents, potions, etc., in order to get through, but it was still brutal.
Well, Intimidating Shout can be used every three minutes. It's a bit more often the Sprint, Vanish, Blind or Evasion.
And see, that's my point on Rogue's CC. It's great if it's a one-on-one situation. Because we have a few options if one should run out early (like they do, frequently) or if they're resisted. But I can't recall the last time I saw one-on-one PvP. The BGs do not 'encourage' it.
And yes, five rogues working together can destroy all kinds of things. But look at that... five rogues. You know, I daresay you could replace it with five mages, or five warlocks, or five hunters or five fury warriors and it would be just as destroyed. Maybe a few seconds later. And in the case of everyone but the five fury warriors, they wouldn't have to worry about being healed.
We have to get in close, just like warriors, but we have much less survivability, in terms of armor and hps. If, somehow, we end up with aggro, we're dead. Yes, we have Feint and Vanish, but Feint can miss and Vanish is still buggy. Even if we don't end up with aggro, far too many mobs in end-game have PBAOEs or Cleaves, and we're not the first choices to be healed by the priests/shamans/pallies/druids.
Actually, the five fury warriors would probably be owned. Given that you are almost required to be in berserker stance, you are taking more damage.
Five warlocks, maybe, maybe not. As soon as one draws aggro, he's toast. Five mages? Well, I've seen how fast they run through mana. So unless they've got something else, they are doomed.
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I don't see what the big deal is. From what I see of the talent list, I would kill to have some of that as a warrior. Dodge, crit strike bonuses, reduce incoming damage capability. Not to mention, the ability to gain back energy faster, increase your max energy, and massively reduce energy costs on your abilities.
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Crit Strike bonuses? Warriors get those too. Yeah, you don't get them as early in your talent tree as Rogues, but you get them. Plus, you have more armor (and thus more damage mitigation), more hps, and there's a lot more +defense gear for Warriors then Rogues.
Reduce incoming damage? Only if we dodge. Which, to recap, is not the end-all, be-all line of defense that everyone thinks it is. Our armor rating, overall, sucks. Druids, the only other class that is restricted to leather, can at least go bear form and have tons of armor. And if you mean the talents in the new Subtlety tree, you have to go pretty deep in that tree to get a small chance to 'dodge' ranged attacks and spells, which is going to reduce your damage dealing abilities by a large amount.
Gain back energy faster? Adreneline Rush is the only thing that does that (other then Thistle Tea, and hey, you have Rage potions), and you have to spec for it, and it's on a timer. And if you're specing for Adreneline Rush, you're not getting that spell-dodging ability.
Increase max energy? You can only mean Vigor. Which is fucking useless unless you have 5/8 Bloodfang.
Massively reduce energy costs? Improved Sinister Strike 2/2 reduces the cost of Sinister Strike from 45 to 40. That's it. Unless you have certain high level sets.
How about the problems we have with our cooldowns? Vanish. Five minutes and a reagant. Doesn't work a lot of the time in PvP. Fails in PvE some times as well. Compare that to Feign Death, which is every 30 seconds, no reagent, and works almost all the time in PvE, and in PvP, they have the lovely "Working as intended" Feign Death/Freezing Trap bullshit.
Blind. Five minutes and a costly reagent unless you're an Herbalism gatherer.
Evasion. Five minutes, and useless against over half the classes.
Sprint. Five minutes, and even with the new Improved Sprint talent, it doesn't address how easily we're kited.
Throw in that we're the only class without a buff to give to the rest of the party/raid, our armor rating can actually be lower then cloth casters, thanks to their armor buffs, we can have less HP then Warlocks (and they're one of the classes that can most easily kite us, Hunters being the other one), and a number of other factors, and you can probably see why we're pissed.
This patch did nothing to address our kiteability.
It did remarkably little to address our damage scaling. (Yes, shockingly, the scaling on Eviscerate, Garrote and Rupture is a fucking joke.)
It did nothing to address our lack of utility, end-game.
It did nothing to address the continued and repeated nerfs of Stealth.
And we practically no goddamn communication at all from the Devs or blue posters. Drysc, the guy what was supposedly communicating between us and the devs went almost four fucking weeks between posts. Apparently, he couldn't take five goddamn minutes out of his busy schedule to even post "Nothing new to report yet, guys." or "Make sure to check out the PTR, and report any issues you see."
Nothing. Not a fucking thing.
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I've actually been looking forward to this patch, as a Sword-spec rogue. Been using calculators to come up with the new build, and I can't wait to see what it amounts to. Then again, I rarely use the traditional Rogue trees, avoiding Backstab, Rupture and Hemmorhage stuff. I'm there to sneak up and whack'em with my DPS, yo. And pick locks. And PVP alliance bitches.
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But the scaling on Eviscerate, Garrote, and Rupture is a joke. Rogues with "average" AP (650-850) will actually lose a bit of damage, if I recall correctly, and Rogues with a lot of AP 1100+, will gain a marginal amount. About the only good news out of that is Blizzard said they are going to keep an eye on that and see if it needs to be adjusted upwards or not.
Plus, on the Rogue forums, it seems every other retarded non-Rogue player posts about how godlike Dodge is, when in reality, it's not as great as they think. Yeah, it rocks when it works. And if you pop Evasion (and Ghostly Strike if you have it), you dodge melee attacks like a motherfucker. But it's useless against spells, against AOEs, against Overpower, and against Hunters.
Vanish is supposed to have been fixed at least twice since they broke it. Have yet to see if they really fixed it this time, although from tests on the PTR, signs point to no.
And actually, my Rogue is a lot like yours. I use swords, and I can't recall the last time I used Backstab, Rupture or Hemo. Hell, Hemo is only really useful for stunlock Rogues (which is another things that every other retarded non-Rogue thinks is way more effective then it really is). In solo PvE, I start with Ambush and then beat the shit out of things.
And if Blizzard would stop nerfing Stealth, and would make it so resisted spells and non-damaging effects would not break Stealth... that would be nice.
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Priest invulnerability is the same way. I can absorb ALL of the damage, but still be poisoned, diseased, frozen. And Overpower requires rage AND timing. If you are out of rage, you can't overpower. If you are lagged even a little, you can't overpower. And if you're clicking on the overpower icon is interpreted as a drag, you get all screwed up as your icons shift.
Crit Strike bonuses? Warriors get those too. Yeah, you don't get them as early in your talent tree as Rogues, but you get them. Plus, you have more armor (and thus more damage mitigation), more hps, and there's a lot more +defense gear for Warriors then Rogues.
Yes, they aren't in the top tier. Damage mitigation means squat against spells. +defense gear only helps in not getting critted against melee attacks. Oh, and as the tank, my job, 50% damage reduction against a 3200 point attack still means I take 1600 points. I can take that 3 times before dropping. And I'm nowhere near geared out. Rogues get far more stuff in special abilities than warriors do. Put a naked rogue and a naked warrior in the same room with comparible weapons, the rogue is going to be walking out every time.
Gain back energy faster? Adreneline Rush is the only thing that does that (other then Thistle Tea, and hey, you have Rage potions), and you have to spec for it, and it's on a timer. And if you're specing for Adreneline Rush, you're not getting that spell-dodging ability.
And rage potions aren't on a timer? And the same timer my healing potions are? And the reasonably priced ones give back maybe 25 rage?
Increase max energy? You can only mean Vigor. Which is fucking useless unless you have 5/8 Bloodfang.
Massively reduce energy costs? Improved Sinister Strike 2/2 reduces the cost of Sinister Strike from 45 to 40. That's it. Unless you have certain high level sets.
How about the problems we have with our cooldowns? Vanish. Five minutes and a reagant. Doesn't work a lot of the time in PvP. Fails in PvE some times as well. Compare that to Feign Death, which is every 30 seconds, no reagent, and works almost all the time in PvE, and in PvP, they have the lovely "Working as intended" Feign Death/Freezing Trap bullshit.
At least you get something. We get max 100 rage and that's it. And again, rogues start a combat ready for stuff, we have to build up to it. Dirty deeds gives you Cheap Shot and Garrote for 20 energy less. Yes it's deep in the tree. But if I recall correctly warriors get much less in rage reduction abilities. Also, comparing your vanish against a hunter combo is kind of pointless. Yes, that does seem to be broken, but what are you going to do? I personally spring the trap and let my party nuke the site from orbit.
Who says each class needs a buff. Rogues are fairly powerful in their own right and a lot would say overpowerful for too long. Having played just about every class for a number of levels, I can say the following:
You don't always have your armor spells up. They can get dispelled. You forget to bring them back up at times and/or they fall down at the worst possible times.
Anyone, anyone can be kited. Some races/classes can get out easier. I can almost guarentee that you've never been kited by a warrior. And end-game? I would love to have rogues along. You can open those chests that are locked so I don't have to carry expendable lockpicks. You can sap the critters so we aren't facing them 10 at a time. Admitedly, there are parts of MC and other zones where you aren't useful as say a mage or a priest (got to have a priest), but there are places where I don't want hunters along AT ALL.
As far as stealth being broken, I will admit to not having played a rogue overmuch, simply because the WoW rogues are not my style. The fact is that Blizzard has no clear idea of what stealth should and shouldn't do and what should and shouldn't break stealth.
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Ambush: Requires 60 Energy
Garrote: Requires 50 Energy (down to 30 with Dirty Deeds)
Cheap Shot: Requires 60 Energy (down to 40 with Dirty Deeds)
We have to expend, before any talents, half our energy bar for an opener. Sinister Strike, at best, costs 40 energy. Hemo, the cheapest spammable attack, costs 35 energy.
Overpower? 5 Rage. When the hell doesn't a Warrior have 5 Rage?
Rend? 10 Rage
Charge? Gives you 9-12 Rage
Heroic Strike? 15 Rage, and you can talent that down to 12 Rage, I believe.
Yeah, it's 'balanced' by the fact that we regen Energy and Rage degrades, right? Except for the fact that Warriors Rage generation is largely based on the damage they do, and with increases in itemization, a Warrior can have all kinds of Rage as long as they keep hitting things. Blizzard has even said they're looking into that because it's getting a little out of control.
Let's see... what else... you point out that damage mitigation means squat against spells? Yeah, guess what, as I already pointed out, so does Dodge. At least you have more armor for the physical attacks. You can take 3 of those attacks? Rogues could take two. And who's more likely to get healed? The tank or the rogue.
Let me think... could it be, the tank? Why yes!
And here's what doesn't need to break stealth.
Resisted spells.
Non-damaging spells. I don't give a flying fuck how much your shout reduces my AP, it shouldn't break my stealth.
Minimal damage. I have 3300 hps. 10 points from a rank 1 Arcane explosion should not break my stealth.
Yes, if I get caught in the middle of an AOE and take a few hundred or more points of damage, it should break my stealth. If someone runs right past me, sees me, and is able to target me and cast on me, it should break my stealth.
But it's ridiculous what does it now, and how ineffective stealth is. I've had Horde members waving at me from 20-30 yards away. And I have 5/5 MoD. But, of course, Blizzard doesn't care about that.
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Hi, I play in Mike's guild on Windrunner.
I'll preface this by saying I am also swords, using an AQR and Iblis, and in full bloodfang with 1022 unbuffed ap.
Sure, the patch didn't address some of our problems. Kiteability still sucks. Scaleability of energy is still bad. I think they could have rounded some talents out better for sword/fist rogues (namely aggression is too expensive). Cooldowns are still really long unless you take some pointless filler talents.
But, lets look at what we did get. Weapon Expertise is awesome. The plus weapon skill is gonna put raiding rogues into overdrive, espiacially non-dagger rogues, since itemization for plus skill for non-daggers is pretty much just maladath.
The moving of opperunity to tier 1 is really great for dagger rogues. Now they can go all the way up the tree to Adrenaline Rush should they so choose. (And they will)
The reworking of the subtley tree is really great for pvpers. They get some more defenses and that sweet plus ap talent. Serrated blades is nice too. Just a general increase in burst damage.
Consolidating the poison talent was also something that needed to occur.
Eviserate with a suitablt high ap will add a good amount of dps in a raid. It seems to get the full upgrade in dps you need to be on the high high end of ap, and for everyone else, not so much of a change.
So, in general, could they have done more? Yes. Did we get totally screwed? No. We got some stuff. It wasn't all we wanted but I'll take it. My general feeling is alot of the major changes to the class we are clamoring for present balance issues that can only really be addressed in the expansion.
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(Anonymous) 2006-08-22 05:42 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
But, you know, it's not so much as they didn't address the issues like kiteability and scaleability of enegry that really bothers me. It's not that their scaling of Evis, Rupture and Garrote is weak at the average AP levels. It's the absolute lack of communication we had. I swear, during every other class review, that class had a lot more communication from blue posters (Blizzard community managers on the official forums).
We went almost a month between posts by Drysc, who was supposed to be our communication bridge to the devs. Now, I don't know. Maybe he was talking to them every day, telling them about the biggest gripes, requests, or questions. But the simple fact of the matter is that even if he was, he wasn't communicating with us. It doesn't matter if it wouldn't have changed a thing. It really doesn't. But it's very irritating that he couldn't take a couple of minutes a few times a week... hell, even once a week to at least post on the Rogue forums.
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Okay, let's take your statements point by point.
Sprint? Five minute timer, lasts 15 seconds. And without the Improved Sprint talent, you don't break any movement debuffs on you. With it, you only break them at the moment you activate Sprint, so if another is reapplied, you're still screwed. Now, does every other class have a movement debuff or root or fear effect that can keep us from getting in melee range where we can do damage? Why, yes. Is Crippling Poison the only movement debuff that relies not only on being in melee range but on proccing? Why, yes. Sure, Hamstring (Warrior ability) requires melee range, but if it hits (i.e. isn't dodged or parried), then it affects the target. We have to not only be in melee range, we have to hit and hope the poison procs. And if you don't have Crippling poison on your weapon(s), you can't slow them at all.
Immune to magic? I wasn't asking for that. We have a talent now, deep in the Subtlety tree that lets us dodge some magical effects, but at best, it's a 4% chance. As for stunlock, it's a lot harder to do then people think. And if anything goes wrong in the stunlock, like a stun being resisted, a hit missing (yes, stuns can miss), then it's over. We're hit with Fear (Priests, Warlocks) or Frost Nova or Polymorph (Mages), and then they back up and tool us. For a stunlock to work, every part of it has to be perfect. And in the case you mentioned, yes, two rogues can tool a single healer. But hey, that's two on one. I daresay two Paladins or two Druids could tool any healer.
Infinite energy? Did I ask for that? No. But Vigor, as a 31 point talent, is very weak. It's sole purpose is to get you to 120 when you have 5/8 Bloodfang. It would be far better if it was +20 Energy and it didn't stack with the Bloodfang bonus.
Best DPS? You're right, we should have that. We're in leather armor. We have less armor and hps then any other class that has to go into melee. We tend to be healed less because all the focus is (and really, should be) on the main tank. But right now, our DPS is being challenged by Fury Warriors who can off-tank by thowing a shield on. Hunters can deal very good DPS as well, and they don't have to be in range of PBAOEs, Cleaves, and other lovely melee effects. Thus, they avoid a lot of the repair bills that rogues end up having to pay.
A complete heal? Did I ask for that? No. Doesn't make sense for us to have one, either. Fear immunity? Did I ask for that? No. Doesn't make sense for us to have it. Would it be nice if we had a talent that gave us an increased chance to resist fear? Sure. It would take the sting out of Deathcoil a little. It would partially address our kiteability as well.
You know what buffs I would like to see for Rogues?
Increased resistence to poison effects. No idea if this would have to be a straight buff to Nature resistance, or if it could be narrowed down to just poisons, but considering we use poisons every day, we should be at least slightly more resistent to their effects.
A Rogue's mark. Hunter's have one. Why not Rogues? Serves a dual purpose. 1) It lets party/raid members know which mob is getting sapped/ambushed/cheap shotted/whatever, and 2) it could be a party/raid buff similar to Hunter's Mark, where the Rogue's Mark adds melee AP to anyone attacking the marked mob.
Non-nature poisons. It's incredibly annoying to have part of our DPS supposedly based on the fact that we use poisons, and then have entire instances that are largely poison resistant/immune.
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Energy costs? I've played a rogue enough to know that the opening moves cost a lot, but that doesn't seem to matter, since my energy regen at 5th level meant that I could follow up with one attack, wait 3 seconds and do it again. The only time energy was an issue was when I was a couple points short for a finisher and killed the monster anyways.
Overpower - 5 rage. But you also have to notice they dodged/the icon lit up. I don't use mods that automatically use my abilities for me.
Rend - 10 rage. Still got to hit.
Charge - 9-12 rage. Yeah, it's our opener. Also puts us up ahead of the party, oh and it can't be used if we are already in combat. Sapped? Can charge until the combat is over. Shot by a hunter or distance nuked, can't charge.
Heroic strike is used early on, but it's much less than optimal at higher levels unless you are keeping your rage really high. And the damage it does, does not give you rage back.
Should MoD at rank 5 give you 'more stealth', maybe. But it's also at the top of the tree for talents. If it was lower, I could see it being more effective. The problem was is that stealth was broken originally. Unless you were a hunter the only way to know that the rogue was coming was to have spot hidden or whatever. As a mage, yes, you could keep a series of level 1 arcane explosions going. Before they 'broke' stealth, my warrior repeatedly got owned by rogues 10 levels lower than him. 50% damage reduction and I don't get to swing at all in combat, thanks to stealth and stun-lock.
So if you want to blame someone (in addition to blaming Blizzard), blame the people that started the abuse of the class that brought about the nerfing.
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5/5 MoD gives you +3 levels of stealth. So a 60th level Rogue with MoD 5/5 stealths like a 63rd level Rogue. So one level of the talent is 3/5ths of a level of stealth. Which is pathetic. It needs to be a minimum of +1 level of stealth per talent point.
And as it stands now, a Hunter 15 levels lower can kite a 60th level Rogue.
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(Anonymous) 2006-08-22 07:26 pm (UTC)(link)Dodge? Worthless versus spells, poisons, diseases, AOEs, and ranged physical attacks. Which means it's worthless against all caster classes and Hunters. Plus, Warriors get Overpower, which means we get to suck 1000+ points of damage if we dodge.
First of all, you cannot put Physical and Spells in the same catergory for Dodge. Dodge applies only to Physical, while RESISTS applies to Spells. You need to get a clue on that fact. Hunters. They are the Anti-Melee Class. What do you expect? Warriors. Dodging is fine. Being Overpowered is also fine. Dying to Overpower constantly means you need more Stam. IT IS possible to beat a Warrior with ZERO Cooldowns with high dodge and health. Just eat those Overpowers and dodge everything else.
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Crit Strike bonuses? Warriors get those too. Yeah, you don't get them as early in your talent tree as Rogues, but you get them. Plus, you have more armor (and thus more damage mitigation), more hps, and there's a lot more +defense gear for Warriors then Rogues.
All classes get Crit bonuses. Comparing to Warriors dmg mitigation, HP, and Def; we get Avoidance, Agro reduction, and DPS at a 80% threat level.
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Reduce incoming damage? Only if we dodge. Which, to recap, is not the end-all, be-all line of defense that everyone thinks it is. Our armor rating, overall, sucks. Druids, the only other class that is restricted to leather, can at least go bear form and have tons of armor. And if you mean the talents in the new Subtlety tree, you have to go pretty deep in that tree to get a small chance to 'dodge' ranged attacks and spells, which is going to reduce your damage dealing abilities by a large amount.
Bears are sponges and they ALWAYS take dmg. No avoidance FTL. Leave the tanking to the appropriate classes.
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Gain back energy faster? Adreneline Rush is the only thing that does that (other then Thistle Tea, and hey, you have Rage potions), and you have to spec for it, and it's on a timer. And if you're specing for Adreneline Rush, you're not getting that spell-dodging ability.
Adrenaline Rush is not a means to REGEN energy but to increase burst DPS. DPS Spec versus Survivability Spec.
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Increase max energy? You can only mean Vigor. Which is fucking useless unless you have 5/8 Bloodfang.
It's Nightslayer set but the +10 Energy is only really useful for PvP and only uselful for openers. In Real PvP and PvE your energy bar starts at 0
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Massively reduce energy costs? Improved Sinister Strike 2/2 reduces the cost of Sinister Strike from 45 to 40. That's it. Unless you have certain high level sets.
This has remained unchanged for almost 2 years. It's a Staple Talent pt for most specs.
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How about the problems we have with our cooldowns? Vanish. Five minutes and a reagant. Doesn't work a lot of the time in PvP. Fails in PvE some times as well. Compare that to Feign Death, which is every 30 seconds, no reagent, and works almost all the time in PvE, and in PvP, they have the lovely "Working as intended" Feign Death/Freezing Trap bullshit.
Blind, Evasion, Sprint...
Yes we are a Cooldown reliant class. I would think these skills were intended for group PVP anyways. So 5 mins is rather cheap when your are playing 15 mins - 2 hrs BGs. I don't think you can win a war with any less time than that.
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Throw in that we're the only class without a buff to give to the rest of the party/raid, our armor rating can actually be lower then cloth casters, thanks to their armor buffs, we can have less HP then Warlocks (and they're one of the classes that can most easily kite us, Hunters being the other one), and a number of other factors, and you can probably see why we're pissed.
First to kill, First to die. We are the cannon fodders. We go in do some dmg. That's all we can do and what we were design to do. Maybe you missed this when you rolled a Rogue.
Honestly if you can do better then just quit this game and go on to create the "Perfectly Balanced World of Warcraft: As It Should Have Been." Blizzard has already sucked you in for this long. I am amazed you still play.
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Every class has a trade off for their CC abilities. It seems you want no trade off. Rogues can vanish to remove movement impairment effects now. You don't like that it's on a 5 minute timer? It would be overpowered if it wasn't.
The +10 energy bonus is on Nightslayer, not Bloodfang. I'm starting to wonder if you actually play a rogue.
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The problem with our CC abilities is that unless you're a stunlock rogue, it's practically impossible to stunlock a player. Plus, with the exception of Blind (which, I would like to point out is on a five minute timer and requires a reagent, so it's not like it's an "any time I want to" CC ability), none of them have any range at all.
Sap, if we're lucky, lasts for 10 seconds. Usually it lasts for less. And with it and Gouge, any damage breaks it. Compare that to Fear effects, where it seems it never breaks before the rogue is dead. Polymorph breaks on damage too, but it's basically the signal for the mage to back up to 30 yards and nuke us from orbit.
Our trade off, as you put it, is that we have to be in melee range to apply any of our CC abilities (except for Blind). Except that every class has easier applied ways to keep us out of melee range.
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The role of the rogue in a group is DPS. Not CC. If it was supposed to be CC, then yes, you would suck at it. You provide some optional CC, but it's typically not required. Does it make certain parts easier? Sure. Just like having a good tank does.
The job of the rogue in a group is to, after the tank has good and pissed off the monster, get in and kill it quickly before the tank expires. I have seen footage of five rogues in an instance destroying things massively. Yes, they did need a number of reagents, potions, etc., in order to get through, but it was still brutal.
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And see, that's my point on Rogue's CC. It's great if it's a one-on-one situation. Because we have a few options if one should run out early (like they do, frequently) or if they're resisted. But I can't recall the last time I saw one-on-one PvP. The BGs do not 'encourage' it.
And yes, five rogues working together can destroy all kinds of things. But look at that... five rogues. You know, I daresay you could replace it with five mages, or five warlocks, or five hunters or five fury warriors and it would be just as destroyed. Maybe a few seconds later. And in the case of everyone but the five fury warriors, they wouldn't have to worry about being healed.
We have to get in close, just like warriors, but we have much less survivability, in terms of armor and hps. If, somehow, we end up with aggro, we're dead. Yes, we have Feint and Vanish, but Feint can miss and Vanish is still buggy. Even if we don't end up with aggro, far too many mobs in end-game have PBAOEs or Cleaves, and we're not the first choices to be healed by the priests/shamans/pallies/druids.
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Five warlocks, maybe, maybe not. As soon as one draws aggro, he's toast. Five mages? Well, I've seen how fast they run through mana. So unless they've got something else, they are doomed.