kierthos | There's no Old Boys Network.... yeah, right.......

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There's no Old Boys Network.... yeah, right.......

More Camarilla bitching...

For pretty much as long as I have been in the Cam (and probably even before that, as I only joined in 1998), there has been talk about an "Old Boys Network". You know, that 'elite' group of members who get things their way, no matter how it affects the rest of the club. The rules are always rewritten to support the characters they play, the requirements for MC are structured (and restructed, if needed) to keep them at the top, etc., etc., ad nauseum.

Now, I don't think it really exists. Not as I just described it at least. But it's pretty goddamn obvious that some members do get their way over the objections of others, and it doesn't matter what the fuck the consequences are, because there don't appear to be any....

What started this particular rant, I hear you cry? Well, on perusing the White Wolf Camarilla forums, I saw Jess Hennig's post about how the Mage game he started in the Camarilla (with the express purpose of having no starting Master characters) got, for lack of a better word, hijacked (venue-jacked) by three MC 12+ players who said that unless he let them play Master Mages, they would insure that his venue didn't get Sanctioned.

Go look for yourself. Under the heading "6.0 Latest part II". Do it quick before someone gets Conrad to erase the thread. Because god knows we can never have any bad mouthing (even if it is true) about Regional or higher level position holders who are MC 12+.

Sure, there might not be a secret handshake, a special pin to wear on the shirt, a membership card, or even a secret clubhouse to meet in. But this shows that there is a fucking "Old Boys Network".

To any respondees, who agree or disagree with me. If you're just going to put "But there is no Old Boys Network", I suggest you look into basic tenets of literacy. You're reading, but you're not comprehending. I welcome responses, but try and use some of the sentience you supposedly have.

Kierthos

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Preach it the hell on brother...

I just love how some people with less social skills than *I* do, and who make NO effort to hide who they like, who the dislike, and who they would willing screw over, get fairly important positions time and again...

Our AMST of Settings is one... She has all the charm of a rabbid ferret that's been starved, and then stuffed down your pants.

Or a former RC that LOST pictures of an assault, but gee, people have seen the on WEBSITES...

And yes, I believe these people over Joe...

Fuck, there are some members I'd believe Satan himself before I would trust them...

I love how MAD some people get when the words "Old", "Boys", and "Network" are strung together... I can only imagine that it's the same reaction you'd get for outting the Masons...

Rant on, Brother!

Not nearly as suspicious as you losing these pictures that are supposedly everywhere, little man.

Who were the three MC12+ players who did this? From Jess' post, he said they had Regional or higher positions. And, since Jess was running this game in Atlanta, Georgia, it narrows it down a touch...

Possibilities:

George Galang, at the time, RST of the Southeast Region of the U.S.
Wade Jones, at the time, just recently stepping down from NST of the U.S.
????

Anyone know of who else it could possibly be?

Kierthos

It sounds like something Wade racine would try and pull, KnobHole that he is...

But I dunno... I understood he lives in VA...

Maybe he travels in order to darken ST's doorsteps...

Well, from another one of Jess' posts on the WW forums, it looks like at the time that Jess was writing up the VSS for Atlanta's Mage Venue, Wade Jones, who was still the U.S. NST at the time, was one of the three who hijacked the game.

Why am I not surprised?

Of course, this makes certain comments from other people much clearer.... (comments to the effect of "So I pissed off Wade Jones. Big deal. That actually works to my benefit under the new leadership of the club.")

Kierthos

Racine doesn't play Mage. Try to bother educating yourself on the people you're going to slander.

Sheesh. No wonder you get your ass handed to you on a plate at Cons.

Was wondering if you would chime in on this one, Chris....

Tell me, how do you feel about a Mage VST, especially one with the vast Mage experience as Jess Hennig, being told that unless he gave in to the demands of those three players, his venue wouldn't get sanctioned?

Kierthos

This is the first I've heard of it... if I had been Jess, I would have told them to eat shit, and grabbed the RC. I don't settle for being pushed around by anyone, regardless of MC. However, Jess likely had more concerns for local politics than I would have.

Does it bother you at all that an ST would have to cater to local politics though? We're operating on the assumption that Jess is not lying about this (see one of my other posts on this thread for why Jess wouldn't lie about this).

Frankly, the way I look at it, an ST should not only never have to cater to "special interests" to have a game take off, but should never have to worry about catering to "special interests" in the future.

When I ran games (I've been the VST for Cam/Anarch, Mortals, and Mage, at various points in my involvement in the Cam), I did my damnedest to keep people interested, not based on what MC they were, or any position they held OOC'ly. But, I didn't have to worry about "Joe MC 12+" wrecking everything, because, IIRC the highest MC in the chapter is 6.

I mean, some people will just say "Ehhh... it's Atlanta." as if that excuses things. Frankly, to me, it doesn't. It's the same thing as making excuses for Florida, as another example. This shit has got to stop. And, maybe not so sad to say, the quickest way to make things like this to stop is to hold the people involved responsible for their actions.

Bear in mind that you have heard only one side of the story, and the fact that you immediately hold it up as proof of how fucked up the Camarilla is may be premature at best. Jess tells his side of the story only, you hold it up as it being "hijacked," and then that

gurgi creature starts going on about Masonic conspiracies. Usegroups have the saying DNFTEB--do not feed the energy being. In this case, the rumor monster that thrives on hosility and hearsay. It's even more of a fucked-up situation you're creating here because a) there's a new NST now, b) the ANST saw from this and other situations that starting Masters are a bad idea and c) it's all academic under 6.0 anyway.

this doesn't show anything. As with EVERYTHING in the Cam, it comes down to individuals. One member has a problem with one other--that's no conspiracy, that's just garden-variety human nature. Abuse of position isn't a conspiracy either. Every time you take one example of abuse and wave the OBN flag, it poisons relations for everyone else and makes holding positions in the club more painful.

oh, and one more thing...
Go look for yourself. Under the heading "6.0 Latest part II". Do it quick before someone gets Conrad to erase the thread. Because god knows we can never have any bad mouthing (even if it is true) about Regional or higher level position holders who are MC 12+.

as long as we're well away from the CoC here in personal journals--KISS MY ASS. I'd have thought we'd had enough civil conversations, that I'd been clear enough, for you to know that you can say whatever the fuck you want on the forums as long as it's constructive. I won't let people badmouth MC ONE members any more than MC 12 members, and if you think I'm going to kill a thread just because someone has an axe to grind before I even get a chance to tell them politely to put it away, think again. I'm not part of your OBN and God damn you for accusing me of that. I will never silence *anyone* unless they are deliberately ignoring me in order to cause problems, do you understand me?

I'm not trying to play moderator in your LJ. It's your space and your business. I will tell you that you're making my job and every other officer's job harder when you do this, and it pisses me off.

Okay, what does Jess have to gain by lying about it?

Absolutely nothing. Sure, maybe kudos from a small number of people (rebels?) who are happy to see someone else stand up and report that they got shafted by some members of the "OBN", but you know, when it comes down to it, that isn't a whole hell of a lot.

Now, what does Jess stand to loss by lying about it?

Credibility. Instantly, if it's proven that he lied about this, *bam* he is persona non grata among _everyone_ who pays attention to these things. The people who were on his side for standing up and reporting this will view him as a traitor. The people who he accused (and their friends) will likely never treat him the same again, etc.

It's not worth the risk for him to lie.

Furthermore, let's assume, just for a second that he lied. I'm not saying he did, but it's all part of that grand "Let's Pretend" game we're in. Now, if Jess lied about something this big, don't you think someone would have said something? There is more then one person from Atlanta who posts on the WW forums... wouldn't someone else have stood up and said "Hey, Jess, you're full of shit! I know who you're talking about and their starting characters were Apprentices!"

But wait, that didn't happen.

Jess has pretty much come out and accused the former NST, Wade Jones, of being complicit in this "plot", and no one has said _anything_ to vouch for him. Okay, this happened over ICC weekend. A lot of the people who might otherwise bitch about this just got home recently and maybe haven't had a chance to check things.

Oh wait, that's a load of shit too. Because there were people at ICC who posted (from laptops and such) to the WW forums. And if anything travels faster then light, it's gossip. Not a person has come forward yet to defend any of the three members that Jess has "accused". Not that he's named names, mind, but it's pretty damn obvious who one of them is. Can't be too hard to figure out the other two.

Finally, no, I don't believe you personally would kill a thread. I don't believe you're part of the "OBN". But, in the past, it's been pretty obvious that other people do have Conrad's ear as well, and have gotten him to delete threads. I never accused all "high MC" people of being rotters. One person, who I believe is around MC 12, I still consider one of the best friends I ever had. I considered him such before I even knew 1/100th of the things he's done for this club. I would consider him such if he'd never done anything for this club. And I would walk point to the gates of Hell itself for him if he asked. There are damn few people who I would do things like that for.

But when things like this (what Jess pointed out) happen, it makes _all_ the MC 12+ people look bad. It makes all the officer levels look bad. And it makes it look worse when they aren't punished for it. (As a note, I never got a response to whether any of three people involved ever got punished for this, or if anyone even bothered to file a complaint against them for it.)

Kierthos

Heaven forbid...

Might have to actually put effort into your job to show you are a decent, worthwhile person holding your possition...

And thanks for calling me a creature... Means a lot to me... really...

And I wasn't going on about "Masonic Consperiacies"... I merely likened the responce you get for saying "Old Boy's Network" to the reaction you'd get for exposing the masons...

If you are going to accuse me of stuff, make sure you accuse me of the right things, ok?

I've got a list, if you'd like....

Fine, I accuse you of being a complete asshole.

God forbid I should be treated like a decent, worthwhile person without having to sniped at by those who like to make malicious accusations about hardworking and dedicated volunteers. The AMST you so love to flame on volunteers 40+ hours per week to enhancing this club, so as far as I'm concerned, the fact that you don't like her is an odious reflection on your character to have gotten on her bad side in the first place.

Fine, I accuse you of being a complete asshole.

Yeah, there we go... Much better...

God forbid I should be treated like a decent, worthwhile person without having to sniped at by those who like to make malicious accusations about hardworking and dedicated volunteers.

I'm very sorry... Wasn't aware you weren't able to take shit like the rest of us non-dedicated volunteers can... I'll be sure to remember that, and make efforts to protect your fairly thin skin...

The AMST you so love to flame on volunteers 40+ hours per week to enhancing this club, so as far as I'm concerned, the fact that you don't like her is an odious reflection on your character to have gotten on her bad side in the first place.

The AMST I "rail" on spends most of that 40+ a week, as far while at work, a fact I hardly call DEDICATED... When work time is used for Cam stuff, I hardly consider that a total to be used publicly like "I spend 45 hours a week on cam stuff" when in reality it's only about 10 hours outside of work (Jesus I want a job like that). As for my "odious" character, well... You are entitled to your opinion.

I'd explain my dislike for her, but I'm fairly sure your mind is rather closed on the issue, so I'm not even going to try, since you fail to believe a thing I say about those 12th night pictures...

And yes, they exist, and I was told by someone fairly credible that she saw them on a web site...

Have a nice day...

Oh for the love of criminey...

Kaylan is widely loathed in her position and known to be biased, has the RP ability of a trout after being run over by a truck (I know, we threw a trout under a truck as kids) and most would be glad to see her far away from a position of responsibility. Nasty, sad, but true.

Being a volounteer does not make you right, capable or a good or nice person. All it means is you have that time to waste. Volounteering that time does not make you god, or immune to criticism, nor does it make you infallible. In the case of the malicious or incompetent it just means they have more time to fuck shit up.

And that's all she wrote...

You mean she's NOT in the running for "Favorite Cammie"?

Well, damn...

It is good to see that dislike of Kaylan isn't restricted to THIS side of the pond...

Being a volunteer means that you contribute to the game. This is deserving of respect.
If a volunteer is wrong, incompetent, or a mean person, no matter what, they don't deserve abuse. No one does, volunteer or otherwise.

"Criticism"--1: disapproval expressed by pointing out faults or shortcomings. 2: a serious examination and judgment of something.

Nobody here is saying criticism or fallibility isn't part of the picture. What part of "Just don't treat people like shit" don't you understand? Even if you think you're being treated badly, my mother taught me when I was four years old that two wrongs don't make a right. You can be critical of a fallible person and still be respectful and constructive.

But of course, I'm saying this to the man who has the loathsome, despicable notion that abusing people and treating them like shit is perfectly fine whenever he chooses to get angry. Get shut of that attitude and I'll have no problem with you.

Well lets see...

If all you contribute to the game is shit, and the attitude that you are god then no, that's not worthy of respect.

Do people deserve abuse? They deserve what they give out. Shit begats shit.

You always take the end of a long road, fraught with frustration, annoyance, imbecility and outright victimisation to be the default start of any problem. It's not. Every time I start to think "Oh, well... maybe I've been a bit harsh on Piglet A, Piglet B, Piglet C" something new comes to light and frankly, the overwhelming majority of them deserve what they've had, if not more.

You reap what you sow.

I'd give you two seconds' consideration if I hadn't seen multiple instances of ST's making simple decisions about the game and you deciding it was abuse-worthy.

Don't even try with me, Jim.

Your 'simple decisions' are often game destroyingly incompetent bullshit.

Don't defend fuckwits and we won't have an issue.

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There's no Old Boys Network.... yeah, right.......

A-FUCKING-MEN!!!

Re: A-FUCKING-MEN!!!

I have to wonder though....

Well.....

And now, an update!

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