[identity profile] thalionar.livejournal.com 2006-03-10 05:07 pm (UTC)(link)
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[identity profile] mithras.livejournal.com 2006-03-10 05:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Since when are they nerfing rogues?

[identity profile] egearman.livejournal.com 2006-03-10 07:02 pm (UTC)(link)
According to the rogues, always.

According to everyone else, never.

Actually, it seems that there are quite a few more things that can see through stealth, and thus make a lot of rogue special moves undoable. Also, it's considered a nerf in WoW when another class gets something new (or fixed). I.e. warriors get overpower fixed, it's a nerf to rogues.

[identity profile] kierthos.livejournal.com 2006-03-10 08:48 pm (UTC)(link)
When our main defense ('cause it sure ain't our armor) is Dodge, and there is a Talent that lets Warriors pretty much auto-crit (Improved Overpower 2/2, +50% crit chance) us when we Dodge... well, you do the math.

[identity profile] kierthos.livejournal.com 2006-03-10 08:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Always. I have a level 60 Rogue with all 5 levels of Master of Deception, which is supposed to make me harder to detect in Stealth-mode. Yet I still have Horde members waving at me from 30+ yards away.

Eviscerate doesn't scale with the weapons we use. You get the same damage range with it from a gray dagger or a Krol Blade.

Dodge is our primary defense, but it's only a defense against 2 1/2 classes. Warriors, other Rogues and Paladins (they're the half class). Spells can't be dodged, ranged attacks from Hunters can't be dodged (and you can watch arrows curve in freaking midair to hit), and if we dodge against a Warrior, it's a signal for them to pretty much auto-crit with an Overpower for 1000+ hps.

Our damage has been nerfed a couple of times, the big one was with the melee normalization.

Stealth gets broken by resisted spells, can be seen through with a variety of effects, and might as well not exist with regards to Hunters.

Disarm Traps (on the test server) breaks us out of Stealth (because the Devs are nerfing Shadowmeld, and consequently Stealth, because the code use is the same for both abilities), which means it's completely worthless, because then the trap goes off. Currently, Sprint, Cold Blood and Premeditation also break Stealth on the test server, and the only thing we've heard on those is that "oops, Sprint is not supposed to". So, it looks like it might be goodbye to Cold Blood/Ambush combos, because clearly "that's not working as intended", even though the cheesy-as-hell tactic of Hunters to Feign Death/Trap is working as intended. (Don't get me started on how laying a trap is an instant effect, but Disarming it takes 5 seconds.)

Sap, our only crowd control of any decent duration, has been nerfed three times. First, it was reduced in duration in PVP from 45 seconds to (at best) 10 seconds. Okay, I can kind of see how 45 seconds is a problem, but we can't re-Sap once the target enters combat, unlike re-Fearing a mob or player, or re-Polymorphing a mob or player. Then, it was changed so that instead of being at least 10 seconds, it checks every tick on players, so maybe it will last 1 second, maybe 10 seconds. And just recently, PVE Sap got the same treatment. Today, I actually had to Sap a mob three times before I could Stealth-walk two seconds away to Ambush the other mob standing right next to it. Literally, it was Sap, start to walk away, mob recovers. Sap again, start to walk away, mob recovers. Sap for a third time, finally get attack in on second mob.

The Devs also can't seem to make up their mind on how Blade Flurry is supposed to work, the AQ dungeon has a book for new ranks of Feint (big whoopee), Deadly Poison (which few Rogues use, AFAIK), and Backstab, which increased the base damage by a whopping 15 points. Was there a new rank of Sinister Strike, which would have been much better? No.

We also know that we're last in the talent review, and if we're lucky, it will happen before the release of the expansion, because if it doesn't, it will probably get put off 3-4 months while they deal with expansion issues. Hopefully, in that review, we'll get rid of the incredibly fucking worthless talents in our trees (like the talent that reduces one of our abilities damage aka Improved Garotte or Throwing Weapon Mastery or Improved Distract.)

About the only good thing that might be happening soon is that it seems that on the test server, Poisons can now be applied and the rogue stays in stealth for that. About goddamned time. We're the only class with poisons and stealth, and as I put it on the rogue forums, we should be able to coat our weapons without giving our position away because we can't stop humming Voltaire's "When You're Evil" or whatever the 'logical' justification for that is.

Every other class bitches about how Rogues can two-shot them or take them from 100% health to 0 through stun-lock, but it isn't true any more and really hasn't been for months, unless the Rogue is geared out in all Epics and the target was a freshly minted level 60 in all greens. And sitting down. And AFK making a sandwich.

[identity profile] egearman.livejournal.com 2006-03-10 09:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, maybe. But when (and this was several months ago, when I last really played) a rogue cuts through my plate mail as if it were tissue paper, and I don't even get to turn around, well, then that's a touch overpowered.

If dodge didn't trigger overpower, it would never go off, because you rogues dodge far more than you parry AND the reuse timer means that I get to use it once per fight.

As far as things breaking stealth, I think opening a chest should, simply because as a fighter, it was annoying as hell to fight my way to a treasure chest and while on the last critter, see the chest open and then disappear. Now, a resisted spell, maybe, maybe not.

Not being able to dodge spells. ranged attacks. No one can, so it's not really a valid arguement to say rogues can't. Maybe if you had something in the talent line that allowed you to and it was broken, that would be a valid complaint.

Damage normalization hit everyone in one way or another.

[identity profile] kierthos.livejournal.com 2006-03-11 07:51 am (UTC)(link)
The problem is, warriors are no longer "tissue paper" (and I really doubt they ever were). Increased itemization has helped their DPS and really increased their armor rating. There are shields out now that, by themselves, are almost 3000 armor, which is what I have with all my gear. And if a rogue is started with a Cold Blood'd Ambush and the following with an Expose Armor or an Evis, or even a Kidney Shot, yeah, it's going to do so damage to a lot of things.

The problem is.... Cold Blood? 3 minute cooldown. And you have to spec for it. Many of our other cooldowns (like Sprint, Evasion, and Vanish) are on five minute cooldowns.

Disarming people? Warriors get that as a basic ability. We have to spec for it.

Attack Power? Warriors get 2 AP per point of Strength. So do Paladins. Hunters get 2 Ranged AP per point of Agility. Rogues get 1 AP per Strength, and 1 AP per point of Agility. Oh, and before I forget, Druids in their cat-form (analagous to Rogue) get 2 AP per Agility. Now, how the fuck is that fair?